Curse

Elistan Theocrat · Oct 24, 2005, 03:48 AM // 03:48

I've actually started this conversation myself a few times. I couldnt be in any more agreement with those who believe that this practice is weak, abusive and should be halted immediately if not sooner. Furthermore, I believe that people who are honestly new to the game are getting turned off to pvp in general because of this very type of pathetic behavior. I've seen a few cases of it personally, and if thats the case I know there are other cases I don't see to add along to it. Which of course is a shame because PVP can be a really fun experience when its a hard fought win on a level playing field.

The ascalon/shiverpeak arenas are a pure joke now. Yea, I saw the joker with his rediculously proud presentation of the 65 win screenie from ascalon, I'd like to see that same guy head to comp arena where the playing field is more level and win 28 straight. I know i'm biased but I think that's a much greater achievement than poisoning noobs who dont have the hp or condition removal to overcome that skill. I've not got much longer to deal with it personally as my 4th RP character is about to turn 16 and then its on to actual pvp instead of the rediculous twinking contests those arenas have become. Even so, I hate to see anything that could hurt the number of players who participate in higher lvl pvp.

Its funny to me the response I get from people who do this when I ask them why. The most common by far is "youre just jealous noob, cause you cant afford it." Now, i'm not rich by any means but I've gotten 2 characters thru the rp game, my first was a monk, and used to be quite the farmer, i've got my own small guild which was entirely out of my pocket and I've spent a good deal of money outfitting new members to my guild as the progress thru the RP game. So I really wouldnt have any problem gettin the armor/skills if I wanted to. I think this answer is very telling to the mindset of the person who does this though.

They think i'm jealous, of what? Of how they win. They actually believe that they are better players because they were "smart enough" to give themselves and advantage and I'm just jealous because my 12th lvl ranger with nothing past Beacons Perch loses in a fight to a 15th lvl Necro in droks using life transfer.

I've come to discover that to these folks theres not so much what is right or wrong to do. Its all about what you CAN do. Therefore the only possible way to unfark the ascalon/shiverpeak arenas is to make it so that they CAN NOT cause it to be an uneven playing field. Hopefully Anet will finally get off the pot on this issue because its really rotten that new players have to play all the way to at least Comp Arena to see an even playing field. (not counting the presear match) More than that actually because if a new player actually went into comp arena say at 16 without being ascended or to droks or at least pickin up some elites its not actually a lvl playing field either, but at least its closer than Ascalon/shiver by the time they lvl up and gear up.

Basically the early rp pvp experience has fallen victim to the lowest common denominators of the playerbase, and its a real shame because those used to be some pretty exciting fights. I actually met one player, I'll spare him using his name, who actually rerolls every time his pve character hits 16 so that he can get friends to twink him up again and win alot in the low lvl arenas.

So theres my humble opinion on this matter once again. As long as it keeps being brought up I'll keep chiming in until anet realizes this should be fixed, and pronto.

Guizzy · Oct 24, 2005, 01:36 PM // 13:36

Nah; I wouldn't put a level on items. A simple armor, weapons and skills check would be enough and wouldn't restrict those that want to experiment with their character.

And it's not as if it was hard to do; in their items/skill database, they simply have to put a flag on things a level 10 shouldn't be able to bring to the arena, and check for that every time a player enters the arena. That's AT MOST a 30 minute job for a decent programmer. The longest part would be deciding what shouldn't a level 10 bring to the arena.

Because as it's now; it's ridiculous. New players are disgusted from PvP because of this arena. And it's not as if it's going to get much easier later. Think about this scenario:

New player tries Ascalon Arena a few times, he gets beaten by exploiters. He stops.

He gets to Yak's, he gets beaten by a few exploiters.

He goes to Comp Arena, he hasn't been doing much PvP; he loses his first 3 games. He vows never to do PvP again.

He gets to Team Arena; tries it and gets owned by a Guild Team.

He gets to Tombs and never had any real PvP experience. Not having any rank, he can only get into crappy blind-invite PUGs. He loses badly.

He sells his game to his younger brother, who makes a Wa/Mo with Mending and Healing Breeze and goes "ownz pplz in d4 c0mpz ar3n4z"; that younger brother gets into every of your Random teams; you always lose.

Previously described New Player starts shooting himself with heroïn. He gets addicted. He dies of an overdose in a filthy crack house.

------------------

So you think that kind of cheating is not important? Huh?

Well tell that to his family!

Sister Rosette · Oct 24, 2005, 01:45 PM // 13:45

^ I wish to beat you with a stick now.

You just linked sucking in PvP to overdosing on heroin. Here's a few thoughts,
like em' or not.

First off; Guild Wars (and I'm quoting the developers here) emphasizes skill
above time spent. Someone comes at you in Asc Arena with Hundred Blades,
find a counter for it. Since I believe every swing of HB is an attack in itself,
Empathy (a starting Mesmer skill) would rape the shit out of it.

No Drok wearing elite packing player is unbeatable. Don't quit, adapt. Learn
by playing to see what elites show up in arenas the most and learn to plan
around them. It's not exploitation, it's laziness on the part of those who are
either too proud or too poor to get drok armor and elites themselves.

Learn, adapt, and conquer. Or get the hell out of Arenas.

D Roc · Oct 24, 2005, 01:50 PM // 13:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sister Rosette

^ I wish to beat you with a stick now.

You just linked sucking in PvP to overdosing on heroin. Here's a few thoughts,
like em' or not.

First off; Guild Wars (and I'm quoting the developers here) emphasizes skill
above time spent. Someone comes at you in Asc Arena with Hundred Blades,
find a counter for it. Since I believe every swing of HB is an attack in itself,
Empathy (a starting Mesmer skill) would rape the shit out of it.

No Drok wearing elite packing player is unbeatable. Don't quit, adapt. Learn
by playing to see what elites show up in arenas the most and learn to plan
around them. It's not exploitation, it's laziness on the part of those who are
either too proud or too poor to get drok armor and elites themselves.

Learn, adapt, and conquer. Or get the hell out of Arenas.

Rosette Pwnz

Guizzy · Oct 24, 2005, 01:51 PM // 13:51

Of course! Now the Olympic teams should just stop training and fill themselves up with steroïds!

'cause of course, if you can't beat them, you should just adapt and do it yourself! Or get a gun and shoot your competitors! Yes, that's a good strategy! That would really be a true test of skill! The richest countries will be able to buy more drugs and guns for the athletes, and will win in every sport! That's the spirit!

Fact is, the playing field is NOT level in any case. Elite skills ARE better than non elite skills, and some players abuse the fact that the devs are too lazy to make it impossible to exploit new players. If Guild Wars was really about skill, it would strive to have a level playing field.

Mysterial · Oct 24, 2005, 01:52 PM // 13:52

You're missing the point. A new player sees exploits like that and it's not getting beat that turns him off to the game, it's that he sees obvious exploits that Arenanet doesn't fix. It's logical to then think that if they won't fix that exploit, they won't fix others. It's very easy to look at the low-level arenas and see what appears to be a game rampant with cheats and exploits. I can imagine it turning off a lot of people to PvP if not the whole game.

Sister Rosette · Oct 24, 2005, 01:59 PM // 13:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mysterial

You're missing the point. A new player sees exploits like that and it's not getting beat that turns him off to the game, it's that he sees obvious exploits that Arenanet doesn't fix. It's logical to then think that if they won't fix that exploit, they won't fix others. It's very easy to look at the low-level arenas and see what appears to be a game rampant with cheats and exploits. I can imagine it turning off a lot of people to PvP if not the whole game.

I understand that, and I can't say that people wouldn't be turned off by it,
but look at it from another perspective.

Maybe Anet is fixing the problem indirectly. Think about it. The primary reason
Monk has been nerfed so bad is due to farming, but look at it systematically.

Balth's Spirit, Aura, AND Zealot's Fire are all available in Forge. Before they
beaten into nerfdom one could take these skills back to Asc Arena and be a
bigass ball of smiting happiness. Now it would take a lot more work to
accomplish the same thing. Nerfs affect the whole game, PvP included. I
honestly look for Thunderclap to be next, seeing as how all the commotion
has sprang up. If they simply disallowed certain armor or skills in the Arenas
people would find a way around it. They always do. Anet might be working
toward discouraging it in a new way.

Also, Guizzy. Shut up. You're turning this into another Government/Drugs/
Etc thread. Go to Droknars Dist 1 if you really wanna swing that way.

Guizzy · Oct 24, 2005, 02:01 PM // 14:01

I guess irony is lost on the internet.

My bad for assuming it was obvious.

Sister Rosette · Oct 24, 2005, 02:04 PM // 14:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guizzy

I guess irony is lost on the internet.

My bad for assuming it was obvious.

I'm all for irony, but a point or message in your irony would be nice.

Eder · Oct 24, 2005, 03:58 PM // 15:58

Yes, Ascalon arena sucks. They should cap armor and don't allow people to equip elite skills in there, or just close it the hell down so it at least stops turning people off the game.

I bet half the newbies uninstall GW after they go in there and are given the impression that the game is 100% uncompetitive, shock full of exploits, and dominated by faction farmers and griefers.

But whatever... this topic's been brought up a dozen times before and nothing has changed... so I doubt ANet will ever do anything about it.

calamitykell · Oct 24, 2005, 06:47 PM // 18:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sister Rosette

It's not exploitation, it's laziness on the part of those who are
either too proud or too poor to get drok armor and elites themselves.

This is... interesting.

We all know the endless "running" debate. Group A likes the availability of running because they don't want to buy armor every 4 hours, and would rather just save up the materials and money for their final set. They want to play the game their own way. Group B doesn't like that people can skip ahead of them and get better armor than they have sooner than they can. They want other people to play the game THEIR way.

According to Sister Rosette, now it's reversed! Group B doesn't want anybody to impose a mandate that Droks Armor and Elites are now common AND acceptable in Ascalon Arena. Group A (Rosette and like-minded individuals) now say that if you want to play in Ascalon, get Droks and Elites. In short, to play in Ascalon you have to play THEIR way.

Can you be any more hypocritical than that? I think not.

Yichi · Oct 24, 2005, 07:10 PM // 19:10

Simple solution to the problem. any elites upon eneterin Ascalon arena or Yaks arena will be flagged and removed from players skillbar seeing as you cant get elites before those areas anyway. and when you get to the point of having elites, you should be well past those arenas anyway

BannyD · Oct 24, 2005, 07:20 PM // 19:20

most people who do this do it for the xp...they get rushed to droks and just do arenas (rather easily w/ armor + elites) for the xp instead of missions

Sister Rosette · Oct 24, 2005, 10:08 PM // 22:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by calamitykell

Can you be any more hypocritical than that? I think not.

Could you have misunderstood me any more? I think not.

I'm not saying everyone should have forge armor and elites in a level 10
arena. I'm saying that despite all their advantages, they're still only level
10's. They're killable. I used to PvP there and I had to deal with this problem
as well. Yes, deal. As in I didn't throw a hissy fit, uninstall GW and go
whine on LiveJournal. They're utterly killable. Focus fire on a warrior in Forge
armor and he drops just like anyone else.

Skill and armor advantages are only one part of it. Teamwork and coordination
is the rest.

Elistan Theocrat · Oct 25, 2005, 12:32 AM // 00:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sister Rosette

First off; Guild Wars (and I'm quoting the developers here) emphasizes skill above time spent.

How does allowing those who have been playing long enough to have the money to be run all over hell's half acre for elites and droks armor an advantage over people are who are new equate with skill > time played? 'Cause to me that sounds alot more like time played > skill.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sister Rosette

Someone comes at you in Asc Arena with Hundred Blades,
find a counter for it. Since I believe every swing of HB is an attack in itself,
Empathy (a starting Mesmer skill) would rape the shit out of it.

Sure, now tell me what you would do vs poison/bleedng in ascalon with skills avaliable to a character whos not been to yaks bend yet... or life transfer. the generally limited number of hp avaliable to those players and the total lack of disenchant/hex removal at that stage of the game make certain skills far less counterable than hundred blades.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sister Rosette

No Drok wearing elite packing player is unbeatable. Don't quit, adapt, learn, and conquer. Or get the hell out of Arenas.

Nobody said they were unbeatable, and besides its not about winning or losing to someone whos being so lame as to bring droks and elites to the arenas its about the fact that anet is letting them effect the balance of those arenas in a rediculous fashion. When I lost to someone who was so weak as to need to bring those things to win, the loss itself didn't bother me, why should it, its not like I was beaten by that player, i was beaten by the advantage that said player gained by exploiting. Meaning I wasnt outplayed, just out twinked. The only people who really care about the winning/losing as opposed to the quality of the combat are the lamers who are behaving in this pathetic fashion.

As far as "adapting"... as I mentioned before how is one supposed to adapt to the fact that life transfer cast on a lvl 10 has ALOT more effect than on a lvl 20 unless that 20 is runed massively? A lvl 10 just does not have the hit points to deal with poison/disease like a higher lvl character. ( the type of character the skill was designed to be used on hence why its not available in the courthouse or the ascalon skill trainer ) how does one adapt to the fact that theres not a whole lot of condition removal to be found in that area of the game. In most, maybe not all, but most cases "adapting" just means bringing other things that dont belong to counter. If you call bringing things that dont belong so that you can compete with the lamers who do this adapting thats fine, I call it selling out.

I do like how you tell people not to quit, but to change how they play, to "adapt" (by how, gettin thier own droks?) or get the hell out. (i read this as quit)

Guizzy · Oct 25, 2005, 01:35 AM // 01:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sister Rosette

I'm all for irony, but a point or message in your irony would be nice.

The point is that justifying cheating and twinking in the PvP Arenas is just as ridiculous as trying to justify cheating and doping in real-life sport. It just can't be argued. Both are games of skill, and should not rely on techniques gained with dubious legitimacy.

Rico Carridan · Oct 25, 2005, 02:01 AM // 02:01

I think the point is, particularly to those like Sister Rosette, is that all other things equal, the player with Drok's armor and elite skills will beat the player without. I mean, honestly, why should the Ascalon arena be reserved for twinks and people who are so good at PvP that they can overcome a huge handicap? Why shouldn't the guy who's played GW for three days be able to bring his lvl 6 elementalist into the arena and have a good time.

For the record, I get a screenshot of anyone I see using an elite skill in those arenas and report it as abuse to anet. After a couple hundred pictures come in, maybe they'll get the message.

Rico

Kassad · Oct 25, 2005, 02:08 AM // 02:08

I dont understand what you people are whining about, drok armour? elites? ascalon arena/yaks? erm.. who cares? I was owning those arenas with the highest death magic you could get at lvl 10 (Sup rune + head piece) and then at yaks at lvl 14-15 with lvl 16 death magic, wearing ascalon armour. My horrors were owning those drok armour users, and I didnt get run to droks. I capped fiends outside in kryta.

I was even accused of hacking by.. Yes you guessed it, a drok armour-wearing prick. New people would get killed easy by the "pros" but most new people dont touch the arenas, let alone know they exist.

Guizzy · Oct 25, 2005, 02:21 AM // 02:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kassad

I dont understand what you people are whining about, drok armour? elites? ascalon arena/yaks? erm.. who cares?

I can assure you that most people who are complaining about it here are not doing so for themselves. They don't care for themselves, but they care for the new players that will be disgusted away from PvP after seeing how unbalanced these arenas are.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kassad

New people would get killed easy by the "pros" but most new people dont touch the arenas, let alone know they exist.

That's exactly the problem. These arena are INTENDED for these new people. "Pro" players are expected, if they don't want to get to level 20 and still have PvP, to make PvP characters; NOT make ridiculously overpowered characters and fight in an arena where new players will have their first PvP experiences. Me and all of my friends have tried their first PvP in Ascalon arena (before the Drok armor/runed up chars/elite skills were a problem).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kassad

I was owning those arenas with the highest death magic you could get at lvl 10 (Sup rune + head piece)

You ARE aware that by playing the game how it's made to be played, you should be higher than level 10 by Lion's Arch, right? The new players that fight in Ascalon Arena don't even know you can capture skills! They shouldn't have to fight you, Droks armor and Elite skills; it's the reason the Ascalon Arena exists; so these new players can have an arena where they won't have to fight "uber"-players.

Also, be aware that I am having absolutely no respect for any player who does this kind of abuse. Absolutely none. You might not care, but realise while you boost your self-esteem by "ownzering th33z n00bz0rZ!1!1", more and more people despise you.

Kassad · Oct 25, 2005, 02:25 AM // 02:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guizzy

I can assure you that most people who are complaining about it here are not doing so for themselves. They don't care for themselves, but they care for the new players that will be disgusted away from PvP after seeing how unbalanced these arenas are.

That's exactly the problem. These arena are INTENDED for these new people. "Pro" players are expected, if they don't want to get to level 20 and still have PvP, to make PvP characters; NOT make ridiculously overpowered characters and fight in an arena where new players will have their first PvP experiences. Me and all of my friends have tried their first PvP in Ascalon arena (before the Drok armor/runed up chars/elite skills were a problem).

You ARE aware that by playing the game how it's made to be played, you should be higher than level 10 by Lion's Arch, right? The new players that fight in Ascalon Arena don't even know you can capture skills! They shouldn't have to fight you, Droks armor and Elite skills; it's the reason the Ascalon Arena exists; so these new players can have an arena where they won't have to fight "uber"-players.

Also, be aware that I am having absolutely no respect for any player who does this kind of abuse. Absolutely none. You might not care, but realise while you boost your self-esteem by "ownzering th33z n00bz0rZ!1!1", more and more people despise you.

.....
.....
.....
Make a char right now and get to lvl 10 and go in ascalon arena, There are no "Newbies", All have drok armour, and elites. When I was with my horrors I was fighting drok armour people, never once have I seen a person not wearing drok armour there, except me, and I got called a "Newb" for it.